1 00:00:47,748 --> 00:00:49,580 - Night. - Goodnight, Rachel. 2 00:00:57,958 --> 00:00:59,118 - Whoa! Sorry, boss. - Rachel. 3 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:01,025 Give us a second, Sam. Has Janet gone? 4 00:01:01,128 --> 00:01:04,064 Uh, yeah, she had a GCSE meeting at school with Elise. 5 00:01:04,164 --> 00:01:05,257 Are you doing anything? 6 00:01:05,365 --> 00:01:07,977 Just dropping this next lot of disclosure schedules off at the CPS. 7 00:01:08,001 --> 00:01:10,813 You got anything on over the next three or four days you can't wriggle out of? 8 00:01:10,837 --> 00:01:13,170 - Court appearances? Anything? - No. 9 00:01:13,273 --> 00:01:15,868 - Fancy a bit of overtime? - Yeah. 10 00:01:15,943 --> 00:01:18,674 Get that done, go home, pack a bag. I'll pick you up in an hour. 11 00:01:18,745 --> 00:01:21,442 - Yeah, why, where we going? - Cambridge, Ravenhill Prison. 12 00:01:21,515 --> 00:01:24,280 Then Bristol. North Avon. It'll all become clear. 13 00:01:24,351 --> 00:01:27,116 Sammy? Yeah, so bins out tomorrow night. 14 00:01:27,187 --> 00:01:28,348 Yes, I know you know that. 15 00:01:28,422 --> 00:01:29,999 And I'm telling you because you're going to have to do it 16 00:01:30,023 --> 00:01:31,383 because I'm not going to be there. 17 00:01:44,638 --> 00:01:46,664 Dom? 18 00:01:48,408 --> 00:01:49,603 Dom? 19 00:01:51,144 --> 00:01:53,204 Look, I'm going away for a couple of days, so... 20 00:01:55,482 --> 00:01:56,802 - Oh, shit. - Who the hell's that? 21 00:02:03,824 --> 00:02:05,292 She's me sister. 22 00:02:05,425 --> 00:02:07,417 I thought you said no one else would be here? 23 00:02:07,527 --> 00:02:09,257 Fuck this. 24 00:02:11,865 --> 00:02:13,643 Are you going to introduce me to your friend? 25 00:02:13,667 --> 00:02:16,501 - No. W-We were... - I want my 20 quid back. 26 00:02:19,606 --> 00:02:21,666 Married, are we? I don't think so, pal. 27 00:02:23,310 --> 00:02:25,021 Can you remember where the door is or shall I show you? 28 00:02:25,045 --> 00:02:26,069 You're hurting me! 29 00:02:29,683 --> 00:02:31,982 I've got your registration number, arsehole, 30 00:02:32,085 --> 00:02:33,730 so don't think I can't find out where you live. 31 00:02:33,754 --> 00:02:36,121 Or every single thing there is to know about you. 32 00:02:36,823 --> 00:02:38,587 Fetch. 33 00:02:44,231 --> 00:02:45,708 I don't even know where to start, Dom. 34 00:02:45,732 --> 00:02:47,360 Have you done this before? Here? 35 00:02:47,434 --> 00:02:48,458 - No. - Two things. 36 00:02:48,568 --> 00:02:51,367 I'm a police officer and you've just used my flat to sell sex in. 37 00:02:51,438 --> 00:02:53,771 Do you understand that you can't do that? 38 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:55,909 And number two, what are you doing? 39 00:02:56,009 --> 00:02:58,035 What are you doing? 40 00:03:03,583 --> 00:03:04,583 Do you want me to go? 41 00:03:04,685 --> 00:03:07,883 No, Dom. I want you to get your life back together! 42 00:03:07,988 --> 00:03:09,889 I was at a hotel, asking about kitchen jobs. 43 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:12,289 I was. Honest. 44 00:03:14,061 --> 00:03:15,324 Ah... 45 00:03:17,864 --> 00:03:19,856 Right. Okay, look, I'm, um... 46 00:03:20,901 --> 00:03:23,769 I'm going away for a couple of days. So I... 47 00:03:24,971 --> 00:03:26,599 Shit. 48 00:03:27,441 --> 00:03:29,910 I don't know what you had to do, Dom, in prison, to get by. 49 00:03:30,010 --> 00:03:31,205 But this is the deal, right? 50 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,515 That is in the past. You're in my world now. 51 00:03:35,582 --> 00:03:38,677 Look, if you're short for money, then... Then you talk to me 52 00:03:38,752 --> 00:03:42,280 before you even dream of doing anything like that ever again, right? 53 00:03:45,092 --> 00:03:48,187 All right. I am going to be going away. So, God, I don't know. 54 00:03:49,730 --> 00:03:51,858 Can you promise me? Promise me 55 00:03:53,567 --> 00:03:57,060 that you will try to behave 56 00:03:57,204 --> 00:04:00,299 like you've got the sense that you were born with. Or I'll... 57 00:04:01,341 --> 00:04:05,108 I will ask you to leave, Dom. Because I'll be left with no choice. 58 00:04:07,247 --> 00:04:10,274 I just wanted to pay you back for your kitchen. 59 00:04:15,388 --> 00:04:18,187 Have you had an HIV test? 60 00:04:30,771 --> 00:04:33,570 Does the name Jeremy Leach ring any bells? 61 00:04:33,940 --> 00:04:35,738 Jeremy Leach? 62 00:04:37,344 --> 00:04:40,075 He raped and strangled three women in the West Country. 63 00:04:40,147 --> 00:04:41,706 One in Reading. 64 00:04:41,782 --> 00:04:43,944 - Ten years ago? - Thirteen years ago. 65 00:04:44,050 --> 00:04:46,485 Sexually assaulted six women, probably twice that many, 66 00:04:46,553 --> 00:04:48,181 all across the south. But yeah, 67 00:04:48,321 --> 00:04:51,348 the court convicted him on the four he raped and strangled. 68 00:04:51,424 --> 00:04:53,393 - So what are we... - We're going to visit him. 69 00:04:53,827 --> 00:04:55,523 Those are for you. 70 00:05:04,104 --> 00:05:05,572 Leach. 71 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:07,403 Wasn't he a total control freak? 72 00:05:07,474 --> 00:05:10,933 Control freak, psychopath, narcissist. It's all in there. 73 00:05:11,311 --> 00:05:13,075 When he was caught, how he was caught, 74 00:05:13,146 --> 00:05:14,842 psychological reports. 75 00:05:14,915 --> 00:05:16,042 So why are we visiting him? 76 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:19,348 Three weeks ago, just outside Bristol, a woman turned up dead. 77 00:05:19,452 --> 00:05:20,511 Yasmin Heaney. 78 00:05:20,587 --> 00:05:22,579 She'd been raped and strangled. 79 00:05:22,689 --> 00:05:26,421 Whoever did it used an MO almost identical to Jeremy Leach's, 80 00:05:26,526 --> 00:05:28,518 the details of which, for obvious reasons, 81 00:05:28,595 --> 00:05:29,927 were never released to the press. 82 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:34,161 For instance, he used cable ties to fasten his victim's thumbs together. 83 00:05:34,234 --> 00:05:36,863 It's all in there. Even the victim profile fits. 84 00:05:37,304 --> 00:05:39,364 White, 32-year-old, professional. 85 00:05:39,906 --> 00:05:41,636 - But it can't be him? - It's unlikely. 86 00:05:41,708 --> 00:05:44,735 He's been tucked up at Her Majesty's pleasure for the last 13 years. 87 00:05:44,845 --> 00:05:47,576 He's not looking at parole until 2036, if ever. 88 00:05:47,681 --> 00:05:49,741 - So it's a copycat thing? - Yeah. 89 00:05:51,184 --> 00:05:53,517 Didn't he get convicted over a single thumbprint? 90 00:05:53,587 --> 00:05:54,611 Not even that. 91 00:05:54,721 --> 00:05:57,919 It was a partial thumbprint. But enough to get his DNA. 92 00:05:58,124 --> 00:05:59,319 Did you catch him? 93 00:05:59,492 --> 00:06:01,654 Well, it went across four forces, including the Met, 94 00:06:01,761 --> 00:06:03,957 but yes, when I worked for the NPIA. 95 00:06:04,030 --> 00:06:05,225 Crime Faculty, as was. 96 00:06:05,932 --> 00:06:08,993 We got invited in. They were desperate, they had nothing. 97 00:06:09,069 --> 00:06:10,401 He was clever. 98 00:06:10,503 --> 00:06:12,870 Nowhere near as clever as he thought he was, of course. 99 00:06:12,973 --> 00:06:13,997 They never are. 100 00:06:14,074 --> 00:06:15,685 - So why are... - He says he's got information 101 00:06:15,709 --> 00:06:17,041 about Yasmin's death. 102 00:06:17,110 --> 00:06:19,136 'Cause I went in from the Crime Faculty, 103 00:06:19,246 --> 00:06:22,114 Leach doesn't know I was involved in the original investigation. 104 00:06:22,182 --> 00:06:23,707 My name will mean nothing to him. 105 00:06:23,783 --> 00:06:25,945 - But why do you need me? - I squared it with the boss. 106 00:06:26,052 --> 00:06:28,487 Can you read in a car without being sick? 107 00:06:29,122 --> 00:06:30,215 I'd make a start. 108 00:06:30,423 --> 00:06:32,221 We'll hit the hotel by 11:00, 109 00:06:32,325 --> 00:06:35,659 we're seeing him at 9:00 sharp tomorrow morning. 110 00:06:36,463 --> 00:06:37,863 I still don't know why you need me. 111 00:06:37,931 --> 00:06:40,765 I'm a Chief Inspector, I haven't done an interview in 10 years. 112 00:06:40,834 --> 00:06:42,894 Don't worry, I'll be there. 113 00:06:59,386 --> 00:07:01,184 - Hiya. - What's happening with our Dom? 114 00:07:01,621 --> 00:07:03,381 Nothing. Why? What is happening with our Dom? 115 00:07:03,423 --> 00:07:05,368 He's been round here saying that you chucked him out. 116 00:07:05,392 --> 00:07:06,469 But I didn't chuck him out. 117 00:07:06,493 --> 00:07:08,792 Hey, I'm not blaming you, Rachel. 118 00:07:08,862 --> 00:07:11,525 - I haven't chucked him out. - Right. 119 00:07:11,598 --> 00:07:15,296 Well, I can't put him up 'cause Tony won't have it. 120 00:07:15,402 --> 00:07:17,428 Alison, I haven't chucked him out. 121 00:07:18,071 --> 00:07:20,472 We just had a bit of an argument. 122 00:07:21,207 --> 00:07:23,233 - Look, is he there now? - No, he's gone. 123 00:07:23,410 --> 00:07:24,530 - Gone where? - I don't know. 124 00:07:24,611 --> 00:07:26,477 I don't think he knew himself. 125 00:07:26,846 --> 00:07:28,542 Has he been behaving? 126 00:07:28,648 --> 00:07:30,139 He's not been drinking or... 127 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:34,153 No, not at all. It's one of the conditions of his licence, not drinking. 128 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:36,280 He's really stuck to that. 129 00:07:37,090 --> 00:07:38,490 It's just... 130 00:07:38,591 --> 00:07:39,991 What? 131 00:07:40,794 --> 00:07:43,354 Look, Alison, I'm away for a couple of days. 132 00:07:45,332 --> 00:07:47,198 I think I frightened him. 133 00:07:50,437 --> 00:07:53,066 I told him he needed to get himself tested for HIV. 134 00:07:53,239 --> 00:07:54,239 Why? 135 00:07:54,908 --> 00:07:56,868 He's... Hang on, Sammy. He's what? He's done what? 136 00:07:56,910 --> 00:07:58,936 The whore... Let's get this straight. 137 00:07:59,045 --> 00:08:03,278 The whore has kicked him, your dad, out? Why? 138 00:08:03,450 --> 00:08:06,181 Because in prison, I think he might've... 139 00:08:07,287 --> 00:08:08,482 might've sold his assets. 140 00:08:08,588 --> 00:08:11,422 Oh, no way! He can't keep his pants up, can he? 141 00:08:11,524 --> 00:08:12,902 Right. Well, there you go, then, eh? 142 00:08:12,926 --> 00:08:14,622 Taste of her own medicine. Bitch. 143 00:08:14,761 --> 00:08:16,559 Sold his... 144 00:08:16,629 --> 00:08:17,961 Can you work it out, Alison? 145 00:08:18,031 --> 00:08:20,000 He's bringing an overnight bag with him where? 146 00:08:20,066 --> 00:08:22,058 I will. I'll call him, but he's not homeless. 147 00:08:22,168 --> 00:08:24,228 No. No. No, Sammy. That is not happening. 148 00:08:24,304 --> 00:08:26,102 He is not sleeping at our house. 149 00:08:26,206 --> 00:08:28,284 Because he's got a key to my flat, so he's not homeless. 150 00:08:28,308 --> 00:08:29,388 Yeah, I know he's your dad, 151 00:08:29,442 --> 00:08:32,537 but you tell him to ring me, I will deal with it because he is not... 152 00:08:32,712 --> 00:08:34,357 Yeah, I'll ring him, I'll ring him. I'll ring him now. 153 00:08:34,381 --> 00:08:36,247 No, Sammy, not even on the settee, 154 00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:39,081 I'm serious. I'm not being mean, Sammy. 155 00:08:39,452 --> 00:08:41,080 - Sammy? - Okay. Bye. 156 00:08:48,461 --> 00:08:49,793 Dom, it's Rachel. 157 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:50,996 Dave, Gill. 158 00:08:51,064 --> 00:08:52,623 Look, our Alison's just rung me. 159 00:08:52,732 --> 00:08:53,927 You need to give me a ring. 160 00:08:54,034 --> 00:08:55,234 Don't worry about what I said. 161 00:08:55,268 --> 00:08:57,169 If you wouldn't mind being so good and kind. 162 00:08:57,237 --> 00:08:58,899 Just get yourself back round to my flat. 163 00:08:59,005 --> 00:09:00,633 At your earliest convenience. 164 00:09:00,707 --> 00:09:04,109 We can talk about this properly when I get back. Right? 165 00:09:04,944 --> 00:09:07,004 We'll sort things out. I promise. 166 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:09,478 And will you ring me? 167 00:09:19,726 --> 00:09:23,629 How come Leach even knows about the similarities to his murders? 168 00:09:23,863 --> 00:09:26,355 A local journalist made the connection. Yesterday. 169 00:09:26,433 --> 00:09:28,061 Who knows how, he's a journalist. 170 00:09:28,168 --> 00:09:30,797 First person he's on the phone to is Leach's solicitor. 171 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:32,463 That's when the shit hit the fan. 172 00:09:32,705 --> 00:09:35,231 North Avon are pulling together an SIO support group 173 00:09:35,308 --> 00:09:37,436 which we'll be part of later tomorrow, 174 00:09:37,510 --> 00:09:39,121 with some of the biggest names in the country. 175 00:09:39,145 --> 00:09:41,910 SCAS, detectives, forensic scientists. 176 00:09:42,449 --> 00:09:44,714 At the risk of sounding a bit thick, 177 00:09:44,951 --> 00:09:46,647 why is this such a big deal? 178 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,084 Because if someone's out there using Leach's exact MO, 179 00:09:50,156 --> 00:09:51,681 it throws doubt on his conviction. 180 00:09:51,791 --> 00:09:53,726 It suggests it was never him in the first place, 181 00:09:54,227 --> 00:09:57,163 that the real killer is still out there, which we know to be rubbish 182 00:09:57,230 --> 00:10:00,428 but there's a lot of people who think Leach's conviction 183 00:10:00,533 --> 00:10:02,866 is the biggest miscarriage of justice in criminal history. 184 00:10:02,969 --> 00:10:05,404 Journalists, peers, the tea and tiffin brigade. 185 00:10:05,472 --> 00:10:07,839 Sadly, however, they're not without influence. 186 00:10:07,907 --> 00:10:10,843 If they can raise doubt and grounds for yet another appeal, 187 00:10:10,910 --> 00:10:13,072 it's not beyond the realms of possibility 188 00:10:13,146 --> 00:10:14,444 Leach could walk. 189 00:10:15,248 --> 00:10:17,240 So, no pressure, then. 190 00:10:29,395 --> 00:10:31,227 DCI Murray? 191 00:10:31,331 --> 00:10:33,960 - Hello, hello. - DC Bennett. North Avon. 192 00:10:34,167 --> 00:10:35,362 This is DC Bailey. 193 00:10:35,435 --> 00:10:37,233 - Rachel. - Ed. 194 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:52,004 - Mr Leach? - Yes, hello. 195 00:11:52,078 --> 00:11:55,981 I'm DC Bailey, this is DC Bennett. We're here at your request. 196 00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:59,636 Before we start, I must tell you that this meeting is being recorded. 197 00:12:00,053 --> 00:12:01,681 Good. 198 00:12:01,754 --> 00:12:04,155 I must also tell you that you're not under arrest, 199 00:12:04,224 --> 00:12:05,668 you do not have to say anything to us at all 200 00:12:05,692 --> 00:12:07,269 but anything you do say may be used in evidence. 201 00:12:07,293 --> 00:12:08,420 I know that. 202 00:12:08,761 --> 00:12:11,526 I know that you've been advised that you can have a solicitor present, 203 00:12:11,598 --> 00:12:14,158 but I believe that you've indicated that you don't want one. 204 00:12:14,234 --> 00:12:15,964 - Is that still the case? - Yes. 205 00:12:16,402 --> 00:12:18,268 Could I ask why that is, Mr Leach? 206 00:12:18,371 --> 00:12:20,840 I would've thought, given your situation, 207 00:12:20,907 --> 00:12:23,103 that that would be advisable. 208 00:12:25,745 --> 00:12:27,646 Is that a Manchester accent? 209 00:12:28,748 --> 00:12:31,650 What would you like to talk to us about, Mr Leach? 210 00:12:33,953 --> 00:12:36,149 I don't know how much you know about me, 211 00:12:36,322 --> 00:12:37,346 my situation. 212 00:12:37,423 --> 00:12:40,552 I'm assisting on the investigation into the death of Yasmin Heaney. 213 00:12:40,627 --> 00:12:42,960 You contacted the incident room at Bristol 214 00:12:43,029 --> 00:12:45,709 saying that you had some information for us regarding that incident. 215 00:12:45,832 --> 00:12:47,630 I didn't... 216 00:12:52,071 --> 00:12:54,302 I didn't want my solicitor here because 217 00:12:55,108 --> 00:12:56,906 he has a son. 218 00:12:57,243 --> 00:12:58,871 Alastair Jackson. 219 00:13:01,314 --> 00:13:03,559 And it's becoming increasingly apparent to me for some time, 220 00:13:03,583 --> 00:13:07,748 and now I'm utterly convinced, that he is the man you are looking for. 221 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:12,824 And I don't just mean for this latest attack, either. 222 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,753 Desmond Jackson 223 00:13:15,862 --> 00:13:18,798 approached me after I'd been convicted. Several lawyers did, 224 00:13:18,865 --> 00:13:21,300 knowing that I'd been poorly served by the man 225 00:13:21,401 --> 00:13:23,097 who'd originally represented me in court, 226 00:13:23,202 --> 00:13:27,003 knowing that I had been the victim of a miscarriage of justice. 227 00:13:27,073 --> 00:13:29,804 I know you don't believe that but... 228 00:13:29,876 --> 00:13:31,902 I took him on, Desmond Jackson, 229 00:13:32,011 --> 00:13:34,640 because he seemed the most keen, 230 00:13:35,181 --> 00:13:37,514 as well as being the most able. 231 00:13:39,118 --> 00:13:40,848 I now have reason to believe 232 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,389 that he had ulterior motives in approaching me, 233 00:13:43,489 --> 00:13:48,257 motives that were to do with contriving to keep me inside prison 234 00:13:49,595 --> 00:13:51,655 once I'd been blamed for what his son had done. 235 00:13:54,167 --> 00:13:57,228 And what grounds have you got for making this allegation, Mr Leach? 236 00:13:58,004 --> 00:14:00,166 After I was convicted, 237 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,805 Alastair Jackson appeared to become obsessed with me. 238 00:14:03,876 --> 00:14:07,608 He wrote to me incessantly, he even requested to visit me, 239 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:09,376 which I allowed him to do, twice. 240 00:14:09,482 --> 00:14:13,886 At the time, you see, I regarded him as a supporter. 241 00:14:15,221 --> 00:14:17,622 But looking back, I realise now that 242 00:14:17,724 --> 00:14:20,193 it wasn't me he was obsessed with. 243 00:14:21,094 --> 00:14:25,031 He was obsessed with the women I was accused of having murdered. 244 00:14:25,665 --> 00:14:28,464 He certainly knew far more about them than I ever did. 245 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:31,834 I now believe, 246 00:14:32,038 --> 00:14:36,305 from what he said, that he knew them. 247 00:14:37,343 --> 00:14:39,312 All of them, personally. 248 00:14:40,546 --> 00:14:42,674 Well, don't you think that's significant? 249 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:48,317 Isn't it true that most murder victims are killed by people they know? 250 00:14:49,188 --> 00:14:50,466 Now, I mean, I'd never met this man 251 00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:52,301 until sometime after his father offered to help me. 252 00:14:52,325 --> 00:14:54,419 And yet, it would appear that he knew, 253 00:14:54,527 --> 00:14:58,055 personally, the four women I was convicted of having murdered. 254 00:14:58,164 --> 00:14:59,164 I didn't. 255 00:15:00,166 --> 00:15:02,465 So you're saying that your solicitor, 256 00:15:02,568 --> 00:15:08,439 Desmond Jackson, is fully aware of what his son may have done 257 00:15:08,508 --> 00:15:11,034 - and he's helping to cover it up? - Yes. 258 00:15:14,046 --> 00:15:16,709 Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. 259 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:19,044 Can you prove any of the things that you're saying? 260 00:15:19,652 --> 00:15:24,113 Well, I imagine I could, yes, if I wasn't stuck in here. 261 00:15:28,561 --> 00:15:31,429 He knew Yasmin Heaney, too. 262 00:15:32,932 --> 00:15:34,992 He mentioned her a number of times 263 00:15:35,067 --> 00:15:36,695 in letters to me. 264 00:15:38,271 --> 00:15:39,466 Would you like to see? 265 00:15:39,872 --> 00:15:41,272 Yeah. 266 00:15:47,447 --> 00:15:49,075 I've made copies. 267 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:51,516 Okay. 268 00:15:52,952 --> 00:15:58,220 When did you realise this about Alastair Jackson? 269 00:15:58,324 --> 00:16:00,725 When I heard about Yasmin Heaney. 270 00:16:02,862 --> 00:16:05,263 It had been staring me in the face. 271 00:16:05,998 --> 00:16:07,796 For years. 272 00:16:09,168 --> 00:16:10,659 And then the penny dropped. 273 00:16:11,971 --> 00:16:15,100 Is there anything else you'd like to say to me, Mr Leach? 274 00:16:16,742 --> 00:16:18,677 I shouldn't be in here. 275 00:16:21,314 --> 00:16:23,476 We have picked Alastair Jackson up, by the way. 276 00:16:23,549 --> 00:16:25,381 - Twice. - Yeah. 277 00:16:25,485 --> 00:16:27,386 I read that in the information pack. 278 00:16:27,487 --> 00:16:28,785 He did know Yasmin Heaney. 279 00:16:28,888 --> 00:16:31,687 He spent rather too much time in the library where she works. 280 00:16:32,358 --> 00:16:34,136 You making your way down to Bristol now, ma'am? 281 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:35,958 That's the plan. 282 00:16:36,462 --> 00:16:37,930 Are you all right? 283 00:16:37,997 --> 00:16:39,363 I hate these places. 284 00:16:39,866 --> 00:16:41,977 I appreciate that not all of you will have had the chance 285 00:16:42,001 --> 00:16:44,368 to read the handout in any depth, ladies and gentlemen. 286 00:16:44,437 --> 00:16:48,465 So, whilst our victim, Yasmin, is a main line of inquiry, 287 00:16:49,342 --> 00:16:50,605 the nature of the attack, 288 00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,339 the fact that it resembles the Leach murders of 13 years ago, 289 00:16:53,446 --> 00:16:57,247 have led us to focus primarily on two main lines of investigation. 290 00:16:57,984 --> 00:17:00,112 People who had access to confidential information 291 00:17:00,186 --> 00:17:02,087 during the original investigation, 292 00:17:02,154 --> 00:17:05,022 so that's the lawyers, police officers, jury. 293 00:17:05,124 --> 00:17:08,424 And people who had access to Leach when he was inside prison. 294 00:17:08,761 --> 00:17:11,321 Now, of the people we've identified as most interesting, 295 00:17:11,397 --> 00:17:15,425 perhaps the most significant at this moment is Alastair Jackson. 296 00:17:15,501 --> 00:17:19,029 Now, Jackson is unemployed, a misfit, 297 00:17:19,105 --> 00:17:20,971 obsessed with Leach. 298 00:17:21,707 --> 00:17:23,198 An apparent supporter of Leach, 299 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:26,212 he visited him on two occasions inside prison. 300 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:29,147 His father, oddly enough, is Leach's solicitor, 301 00:17:29,248 --> 00:17:32,878 so Jackson may well have had access to confidential information right there 302 00:17:32,952 --> 00:17:34,045 in his parents' home 303 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,214 at the time of the original investigation. 304 00:17:36,322 --> 00:17:38,120 His alibi 305 00:17:38,224 --> 00:17:40,125 at the time that Yasmin went missing 306 00:17:40,192 --> 00:17:42,821 turned out to be an elaborate pack of lies. 307 00:17:42,929 --> 00:17:44,830 But still no arrest. 308 00:17:45,565 --> 00:17:48,626 DCI Murray came across from the Crime Faculty to help us 309 00:17:48,701 --> 00:17:50,294 with the original investigation. 310 00:17:50,403 --> 00:17:53,771 And she has, in fact, spoken to Leach this very morning, 311 00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:56,673 at his request, inside Ravenhill Prison. 312 00:17:56,842 --> 00:17:59,334 He himself is pointing the finger at Jackson. 313 00:17:59,478 --> 00:18:01,572 And not just for Yasmin's murder, either. 314 00:18:01,681 --> 00:18:03,980 Leach is suggesting that Jackson was responsible 315 00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:07,315 for the murders he was sent down for 13 years ago. 316 00:18:07,386 --> 00:18:08,666 I hope you don't mind me saying, 317 00:18:08,721 --> 00:18:11,953 but if you're seriously considering Alastair Jackson for Yasmin, 318 00:18:12,024 --> 00:18:16,621 we're opening a can of worms, and one which Leach will exploit to the hilt. 319 00:18:16,729 --> 00:18:18,721 And frankly, in my book, 320 00:18:18,798 --> 00:18:20,878 the fact that Leach is pointing the finger at Jackson 321 00:18:20,967 --> 00:18:22,663 is practically grounds to rule him out. 322 00:18:35,982 --> 00:18:38,076 Isn't there, like, a really screaming flaw 323 00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:40,176 in the whole basis of this investigation? 324 00:18:40,553 --> 00:18:42,317 Is there? 325 00:18:43,155 --> 00:18:44,155 What? 326 00:18:44,290 --> 00:18:47,920 Well, their two lines of inquiry and the way that you're talking 327 00:18:49,328 --> 00:18:51,024 are based entirely on the assumption 328 00:18:51,130 --> 00:18:53,122 that Leach is guilty of the original crimes. 329 00:18:53,199 --> 00:18:54,599 - Thank you. - Cheers. 330 00:18:54,667 --> 00:18:56,602 It's not an assumption. 331 00:18:56,769 --> 00:18:58,567 He is guilty. 332 00:18:58,904 --> 00:19:00,463 Yeah, but... 333 00:19:00,706 --> 00:19:03,039 - What if he isn't? - But he is. 334 00:19:03,909 --> 00:19:06,071 Yeah, but if he isn't, then the whole thing's skewed. 335 00:19:06,846 --> 00:19:09,338 Rachel Bailey, Gill Murray. We've got reservations. 336 00:19:09,882 --> 00:19:12,044 Yeah, but he is. So, it isn't. 337 00:19:12,118 --> 00:19:13,643 Fill these forms out, please. 338 00:19:14,887 --> 00:19:18,756 I feel like you're not hearing what I'm saying. 339 00:19:18,824 --> 00:19:20,486 You've read your ring binders. 340 00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:23,552 It was Leach's DNA at the scene. 341 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:28,158 His thumbprint on the pendant of Catherine Maloney's necklace, 342 00:19:28,234 --> 00:19:30,396 pressed so hard it was embedded into her skin. 343 00:19:30,469 --> 00:19:32,097 And at the time, 344 00:19:32,204 --> 00:19:34,683 he couldn't account for how else his dabs could have got on it, 345 00:19:34,707 --> 00:19:37,404 even if he came up with some convoluted rubbish about it afterwards. 346 00:19:37,476 --> 00:19:39,604 - Yeah, but... - His delivery schedule 347 00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:43,446 put him at or near all the murders. 348 00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:47,476 We even had a witness who ID'd him in the area of one of them. 349 00:19:47,887 --> 00:19:48,980 All right, forget it. 350 00:19:49,088 --> 00:19:52,115 Do you think he's a bit too good-looking to be a killer? Mmm? 351 00:19:52,425 --> 00:19:54,121 Did you ever see a photo of Ted Bundy? 352 00:19:54,226 --> 00:19:56,127 Think he was a bit too good-looking as well? 353 00:19:56,195 --> 00:19:58,630 To have raped and murdered 34 women. 354 00:19:58,964 --> 00:20:02,423 I didn't believe him, but I didn't not believe him, either. 355 00:20:02,802 --> 00:20:04,100 Rachel, are you serious? 356 00:20:04,203 --> 00:20:06,365 - You'd let that man out? - No. 357 00:20:07,106 --> 00:20:08,540 No. 358 00:20:08,641 --> 00:20:11,076 Well, yeah, if he's not guilty. 359 00:20:11,310 --> 00:20:12,642 - Oh, God. - What? 360 00:20:12,712 --> 00:20:13,941 Bandits at two. 361 00:20:14,046 --> 00:20:15,275 Julian McAndrew. 362 00:20:15,347 --> 00:20:17,025 Writes for The Guardian and The New Statesman, 363 00:20:17,049 --> 00:20:19,280 one of Leach's staunchest dickhead supporters. 364 00:20:19,351 --> 00:20:21,632 - That was quick. - It's volatile, I told you. Don't look. 365 00:20:21,721 --> 00:20:25,317 I can almost understand them not getting it but you, 366 00:20:25,391 --> 00:20:27,383 you used to work in the sex crimes unit. 367 00:20:27,493 --> 00:20:28,961 You know rape isn't about sex. 368 00:20:29,028 --> 00:20:31,520 It's about power and control and humiliation. 369 00:20:31,797 --> 00:20:33,231 He's a sick fuck, 370 00:20:33,332 --> 00:20:36,132 and he can hide it better than your average Herbert 'cause he's clever. 371 00:20:36,168 --> 00:20:39,627 Clever enough to make someone like you doubt forensic evidence. 372 00:20:40,106 --> 00:20:43,008 Room 1703 and Room 522. 373 00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:45,044 - Enjoy your stay, ladies. - Thank you. 374 00:20:45,111 --> 00:20:47,444 All we have to do... Well, all North Avon have to do 375 00:20:47,513 --> 00:20:50,176 is find out who killed Yasmin and prove it fast, 376 00:20:50,282 --> 00:20:53,684 before people like McAndrew manage to turn it into something it isn't. 377 00:20:53,853 --> 00:20:56,288 We know who killed the others, Rachel. 378 00:20:56,355 --> 00:20:58,950 It was that nice man you spoke to this morning at HMP Ravenhill. 379 00:20:59,024 --> 00:21:00,549 Well, all the same, I think we... 380 00:21:00,993 --> 00:21:03,622 I think they ought to look very closely at Jackson again. 381 00:21:03,729 --> 00:21:07,166 I agree with you, 'cause I think Leach is trying to set Jackson up, which... 382 00:21:09,468 --> 00:21:10,663 means he's involved. 383 00:21:10,770 --> 00:21:13,865 It's not just someone who's copying him, it's someone he's conspired with, 384 00:21:13,973 --> 00:21:16,943 someone he's consciously inculcated with his... 385 00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:20,856 And he's arrogant enough to think he can point us in the wrong direction. 386 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,891 Stick your bag in your room, back here in five minutes. 387 00:21:22,915 --> 00:21:24,235 We're going to the incident room. 388 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:34,359 Ed! 389 00:21:35,795 --> 00:21:38,162 - Hello, ma'am. - Where's Mr Wallis? 390 00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:40,358 He's driven over to Abbots Leigh. 391 00:21:41,801 --> 00:21:43,429 Another girl's turned up. 392 00:21:43,602 --> 00:21:46,162 Same... Cable ties. 393 00:21:55,548 --> 00:21:59,110 Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, it was always a possibility, of course, 394 00:21:59,185 --> 00:22:01,279 that Leach was behind the whole thing, yeah, but... 395 00:22:02,087 --> 00:22:03,765 But does it actually change the investigation 396 00:22:03,789 --> 00:22:05,469 if we accept that he's pulling the strings? 397 00:22:05,524 --> 00:22:07,390 No, no. Of course it doesn't, but again, 398 00:22:07,493 --> 00:22:09,053 it points the finger away from Jackson, 399 00:22:09,161 --> 00:22:11,255 given that he was so keen to implicate him. 400 00:22:12,131 --> 00:22:15,363 Look, Gill, I don't want it to be Jackson any more than you do. 401 00:22:15,434 --> 00:22:16,868 I mean, I know what kind of 402 00:22:16,969 --> 00:22:19,461 unhelpful frenzy this could set off in the media, 403 00:22:19,572 --> 00:22:21,473 but we've got to keep an open mind. 404 00:22:21,574 --> 00:22:25,067 Yeah, of course, but this is someone who was inside with him. 405 00:22:25,144 --> 00:22:27,943 This is not a visitor, certainly not Jackson. 406 00:22:28,047 --> 00:22:30,141 This is someone not unlike himself. 407 00:22:30,249 --> 00:22:32,309 This is someone who is capable of doing that. 408 00:22:32,384 --> 00:22:33,852 Even with a copycat killing, 409 00:22:33,919 --> 00:22:36,013 you don't go from nought to 90 in 10 seconds. 410 00:22:36,155 --> 00:22:37,817 Jackson's got no criminal record. 411 00:22:37,923 --> 00:22:40,552 You and I both know whoever did this has got previous. 412 00:22:40,626 --> 00:22:43,061 Jackson hasn't even got a speeding ticket, 413 00:22:43,195 --> 00:22:44,424 because he doesn't drive. 414 00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:46,522 So, how has he got that body out here? 415 00:22:47,466 --> 00:22:49,435 You're absolutely right. 416 00:22:52,438 --> 00:22:53,701 So, what haven't I done, Gill? 417 00:22:53,806 --> 00:22:56,742 Could I ask how you're prioritising interviewing 418 00:22:56,842 --> 00:22:59,505 and eliminating the people Leach has been inside with? 419 00:22:59,612 --> 00:23:01,478 I mean prisoners, not wardens and visitors. 420 00:23:01,547 --> 00:23:04,092 Yeah, well, initially we're looking at people who he was close to, 421 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:05,584 you know, in the last five years. 422 00:23:05,684 --> 00:23:08,779 People he spent time with, who were released just in the last year. 423 00:23:08,888 --> 00:23:11,949 I think you should be prioritising your sexually motivated killers, 424 00:23:12,024 --> 00:23:13,686 going back the whole 13 years, 425 00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:16,786 - however brief their exposure to him. - Well, that was discussed but... 426 00:23:16,862 --> 00:23:19,354 I hope you don't mind but I rang the clinical psychologist 427 00:23:19,431 --> 00:23:21,457 I work with in Manchester, Martin Hines. 428 00:23:22,034 --> 00:23:24,503 He says this could be someone Leach met in the toilets 429 00:23:24,603 --> 00:23:26,834 for five minutes, once a week, 10 years ago. 430 00:23:27,106 --> 00:23:29,200 He'll have avoided being noticed with this person 431 00:23:29,275 --> 00:23:31,107 because he's got too much in common with him. 432 00:23:31,210 --> 00:23:33,941 He's persistently maintained his innocence, 433 00:23:34,046 --> 00:23:36,447 so, publicly, this person would be anathema to him. 434 00:23:36,515 --> 00:23:40,680 Privately, though, this is someone he'll have identified really quickly, 435 00:23:40,786 --> 00:23:43,517 then cultivated, then avoided being seen with. 436 00:23:43,589 --> 00:23:45,717 He'll have promised him something. God knows what. 437 00:23:46,191 --> 00:23:49,161 A spree together, if ever he helps him get out. 438 00:23:49,228 --> 00:23:51,823 Not money. That wouldn't motivate this sort of sick bugger. 439 00:23:51,931 --> 00:23:54,025 And he's so controlled, Leach, 440 00:23:54,133 --> 00:23:56,796 this could be someone who was released three or four years ago, 441 00:23:56,869 --> 00:23:59,805 waiting for Leach to give him the nod at just the right moment... 442 00:23:59,872 --> 00:24:01,170 With exactly the right victim. 443 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,641 Leach knew that Jackson knew Yasmin Heaney. 444 00:24:03,709 --> 00:24:06,907 He mentioned her in the letters that he wrote to Leach. Jackson did. 445 00:24:07,413 --> 00:24:09,279 And she fitted the victim profile. 446 00:24:09,581 --> 00:24:12,027 Well, a couple of the lads did a comprehensive list of everybody 447 00:24:12,051 --> 00:24:14,748 that Leach was exposed to in prison, going back the whole 13 years. 448 00:24:14,853 --> 00:24:17,789 You know, do you want to take a look at it? Suggest a new strategy? 449 00:24:17,923 --> 00:24:19,892 Sure. Have you identified her? 450 00:24:20,993 --> 00:24:24,361 There was a 30-year-old woman reported missing in Bristol last week. 451 00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:25,796 Jodie Winterbourne. 452 00:24:26,265 --> 00:24:30,760 Thirty, 5'8", short dark hair. 453 00:24:31,804 --> 00:24:33,363 She's ticking a lot of boxes. 454 00:24:36,809 --> 00:24:39,210 Dark brown hair, 5'8". 455 00:24:39,445 --> 00:24:40,936 What about it? 456 00:24:41,046 --> 00:24:44,073 I fit the victim profile. That's why you asked me to interview him. 457 00:24:44,149 --> 00:24:47,779 Yeah. I thought he'd fall for you, though, not the other way round. 458 00:24:47,987 --> 00:24:49,751 - That's unethical. - Sue me. 459 00:24:49,822 --> 00:24:50,983 It didn't occur to me. 460 00:24:51,090 --> 00:24:53,525 In fact, you were the first Tier 3 I bumped into. 461 00:24:53,592 --> 00:24:56,027 I asked where Janet was, if you remember. 462 00:24:56,829 --> 00:24:58,320 So, is this what you used to do? 463 00:24:58,397 --> 00:25:00,593 Drop into other forces, tell them what to do? 464 00:25:00,666 --> 00:25:03,602 You don't tell people what to do. You advise them. 465 00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:05,900 I advised on eight jobs in one week once. 466 00:25:06,005 --> 00:25:07,268 - What, murders? - Yeah. 467 00:25:07,506 --> 00:25:09,475 Still, it's swings and roundabouts, isn't it? 468 00:25:09,541 --> 00:25:12,534 If I hadn't given it up, I'd never have met you and Kevin. 469 00:25:21,653 --> 00:25:24,020 So, he's been in four prisons, had 58 cell moves. 470 00:25:24,556 --> 00:25:28,220 That's a total of 3,426 inmates 471 00:25:28,327 --> 00:25:30,956 he's potentially come into contact with over 13 years. 472 00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:34,262 Let's start with a list of those convicted of murder and of rape. 473 00:25:34,366 --> 00:25:35,595 - Thank you. - Okay. 474 00:25:35,667 --> 00:25:39,001 Then a list of those just convicted of murder, 'cause let's face it, 475 00:25:39,071 --> 00:25:40,648 how many times have we had... 476 00:25:40,672 --> 00:25:41,983 someone who's raped and murdered 477 00:25:42,007 --> 00:25:43,418 but the CPS'll only push on the murder charge? 478 00:25:43,442 --> 00:25:44,442 Tell me about it. 479 00:25:44,510 --> 00:25:47,742 Then, third, a list of those convicted of just rape. 480 00:25:47,846 --> 00:25:49,109 Cool, yeah. 481 00:25:49,181 --> 00:25:51,446 Ma'am, is it all right if I make a call? 482 00:25:51,517 --> 00:25:53,247 Yeah, of course. 483 00:25:57,322 --> 00:25:58,813 Dom? 484 00:25:58,924 --> 00:26:00,756 - Hiya. - Where are you? 485 00:26:01,226 --> 00:26:02,956 Your house. 486 00:26:03,028 --> 00:26:05,020 Where have you been? 487 00:26:05,397 --> 00:26:07,059 Nowhere. Just here. 488 00:26:07,566 --> 00:26:09,762 Me and Alison have both been trying to get hold of you. 489 00:26:10,369 --> 00:26:11,769 I know. I'm sorry. 490 00:26:14,273 --> 00:26:15,639 You all right? 491 00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:19,076 Yeah. 492 00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:22,048 I'm worried about you. 493 00:26:23,649 --> 00:26:24,708 Sorry. 494 00:26:26,151 --> 00:26:27,642 Are you eating properly? 495 00:26:27,986 --> 00:26:29,010 Yeah. 496 00:26:29,354 --> 00:26:31,186 What have you had today? 497 00:26:32,357 --> 00:26:33,518 Toast. 498 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:38,955 Listen, Dom. 499 00:26:41,366 --> 00:26:42,595 I love you. 500 00:26:43,869 --> 00:26:46,862 I don't want you to be embarrassed about what's happened. 501 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,935 I just want you to move on and get your life back together. 502 00:26:51,944 --> 00:26:53,071 Yeah. 503 00:26:54,446 --> 00:26:56,642 You know, some of the most horrendous, 504 00:26:56,715 --> 00:26:59,378 violent murders that I've ever seen have involved gay men 505 00:26:59,485 --> 00:27:03,388 with other men in exactly that situation like you were in and... 506 00:27:05,124 --> 00:27:07,150 I'm sorry if you think... 507 00:27:09,428 --> 00:27:11,920 Look, I wasn't overreacting. Believe me, I wasn't. 508 00:27:14,566 --> 00:27:15,795 Okay. 509 00:27:16,468 --> 00:27:19,063 We'll work everything out. All right? 510 00:27:20,806 --> 00:27:22,707 We will, I promise. 511 00:27:23,609 --> 00:27:27,011 Look, I want you to buy some fresh fruit and veg with that money that I left you. 512 00:27:27,346 --> 00:27:28,346 All right? 513 00:27:29,915 --> 00:27:31,440 - Dom? - Yeah. 514 00:27:32,484 --> 00:27:33,484 Yeah. 515 00:27:33,886 --> 00:27:35,149 All right, I've got to go. 516 00:27:35,254 --> 00:27:37,723 But I'll be back soon. Soon as I can. 517 00:27:38,724 --> 00:27:40,124 Yeah. 518 00:27:41,927 --> 00:27:43,122 I'll see you. 519 00:27:43,762 --> 00:27:45,253 See you. 520 00:28:01,547 --> 00:28:04,711 Forty-two killers also convicted of rape now released. 521 00:28:04,783 --> 00:28:06,479 Most of them are elderly, past it. 522 00:28:06,552 --> 00:28:08,111 Twelve under the age of 60. 523 00:28:08,187 --> 00:28:10,019 The youngest is 38. 524 00:28:10,122 --> 00:28:12,091 We need the crime scene photos 525 00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:14,888 of the murders that each of those 12 were originally convicted of. 526 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,986 - Yeah. - And we need to compare them... 527 00:28:17,062 --> 00:28:18,724 - Ed? - Listening. 528 00:28:18,797 --> 00:28:20,808 With the crime scenes from the present two murders, 529 00:28:20,832 --> 00:28:23,461 Yasmin's and this latest one, Jodie, if it is Jodie. 530 00:28:23,569 --> 00:28:24,628 Yeah. 531 00:28:24,703 --> 00:28:27,070 Starting with those that now live geographically closest, 532 00:28:27,172 --> 00:28:29,835 because every one of these twisted sods should be out on a licence. 533 00:28:30,108 --> 00:28:32,942 They'll all have a parole officer they report to, so chances are 534 00:28:33,078 --> 00:28:35,013 - it's not someone who's in Edinburgh. - Yeah. 535 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,776 And there's another thing I want you to do. 536 00:28:36,882 --> 00:28:40,683 I want you to compare the photos of Yasmin's murder and Jodie's murder 537 00:28:40,752 --> 00:28:44,416 with each other, and then compare those with the four Leach was convicted of. 538 00:28:44,523 --> 00:28:47,118 And this time, I want you to look at the differences 539 00:28:47,192 --> 00:28:48,990 as well as the similarities. 540 00:28:49,061 --> 00:28:51,462 I think they've focused on the similarities too much. 541 00:28:51,563 --> 00:28:54,083 I want you to look at what this new bloke's brought to the party 542 00:28:54,166 --> 00:28:56,294 that's nothing to do with Leach's MO. 543 00:28:56,401 --> 00:28:57,562 Something all of his own 544 00:28:57,636 --> 00:28:59,605 from his previous offences that's seeped through, 545 00:28:59,671 --> 00:29:02,004 something he's probably not aware of himself. 546 00:29:02,074 --> 00:29:03,235 Right. 547 00:29:35,007 --> 00:29:36,999 You've got four men in your force area 548 00:29:37,075 --> 00:29:38,737 who could be the person we're looking for. 549 00:29:39,111 --> 00:29:42,138 Three of them are registered with their probation officers here, in Bristol, 550 00:29:42,247 --> 00:29:45,513 but there's another one, a fellow called Philip Martin Hibbert. 551 00:29:46,184 --> 00:29:49,018 Uh, he's registered at an address in Yeovil. 552 00:29:49,688 --> 00:29:51,782 He murdered two women 15 years ago. 553 00:29:51,890 --> 00:29:53,935 Raped them as well, but he was never charged with that. 554 00:29:53,959 --> 00:29:55,928 He was released 18 months since. 555 00:29:55,994 --> 00:29:58,259 The other three are John James Wilkes, 556 00:29:58,363 --> 00:30:00,525 registered at an address in St Paul's. 557 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:03,467 Sexually assaulted three women in Lincolnshire, none of whom died. 558 00:30:03,568 --> 00:30:05,833 But one of whom the police believed he'd left for dead, 559 00:30:05,904 --> 00:30:07,944 so it was an attempted murder, rather than a murder. 560 00:30:07,973 --> 00:30:11,535 He was released four years ago, originally sent down in 1997. 561 00:30:11,643 --> 00:30:14,442 Hassan Abuzein, registered at an address in Knowle West. 562 00:30:14,513 --> 00:30:16,778 Sent down 1995, raped and murdered his niece 563 00:30:16,882 --> 00:30:18,578 in Southall, London. 564 00:30:18,684 --> 00:30:20,949 Released from Ravenhill six months ago. 565 00:30:21,053 --> 00:30:23,079 Ashley Robert Boyall, ex-army. 566 00:30:23,155 --> 00:30:25,300 Registered address, Easton, released two and a half years ago. 567 00:30:25,324 --> 00:30:28,089 Served 15 years for murdering two sex workers. 568 00:30:28,193 --> 00:30:30,424 That was in... Kettering. 569 00:30:30,529 --> 00:30:32,259 We can widen the net, obviously, 570 00:30:32,364 --> 00:30:34,142 if this doesn't give us what we're looking for. 571 00:30:34,166 --> 00:30:36,067 But I asked Rachel to look at the differences 572 00:30:36,168 --> 00:30:38,967 between Leach's original crime scenes and the present ones 573 00:30:39,037 --> 00:30:42,098 to see if there was any seepage, things that didn't fit in with Leach, 574 00:30:42,207 --> 00:30:44,676 but which did correspond to the MO of these men. 575 00:30:44,743 --> 00:30:47,474 We think this one, the first one, Hibbert, 576 00:30:47,946 --> 00:30:49,357 could be the man you're looking for. 577 00:30:49,381 --> 00:30:50,474 - Hmm. - Show him. 578 00:30:50,549 --> 00:30:53,883 Well, that's Yasmin Heaney, and that's Jodie, last night. Yeah? 579 00:30:54,252 --> 00:30:58,019 That's Heather Price, that's Jane Reid, Hibbert's victims. 580 00:31:02,928 --> 00:31:04,863 He dragged them all there by their arms. 581 00:31:05,397 --> 00:31:07,742 Which suggests they were already dead when he took 'em there. 582 00:31:07,766 --> 00:31:10,497 Leach didn't do that. He killed his victims at the scene. 583 00:31:10,602 --> 00:31:12,571 There are a few more details pointing at Hibbert, 584 00:31:12,637 --> 00:31:14,382 which we can go through if you like. 585 00:31:14,406 --> 00:31:15,840 Sorry. 586 00:31:15,907 --> 00:31:17,500 Hello, Rick Wallis. 587 00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:19,710 Yep. 588 00:31:21,413 --> 00:31:22,642 Okay. Thank you. 589 00:31:22,981 --> 00:31:24,540 Thank you. Bye, now. Bye. 590 00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:26,909 That was the lab. 591 00:31:29,121 --> 00:31:31,181 Alastair Jackson's DNA on a cigarette butt 592 00:31:31,289 --> 00:31:33,554 we found at last night's crime scene. 593 00:31:37,763 --> 00:31:40,323 I'm just asking, before you race in and make an arrest, 594 00:31:40,399 --> 00:31:43,378 which, absolutely, if you believe that's the right thing to do, that's your call, 595 00:31:43,402 --> 00:31:44,995 but I'm asking you to consider this. 596 00:31:45,070 --> 00:31:48,666 We've been working on the theory that Leach is setting Jackson up, 597 00:31:48,774 --> 00:31:51,710 working with an accomplice who is capable of rape and murder. 598 00:31:51,810 --> 00:31:54,837 I'm pretty certain that same person would be more than capable 599 00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:56,279 of planting a fag butt, too. 600 00:31:56,348 --> 00:31:59,147 I suggest that someone in Jackson's orbit 601 00:31:59,251 --> 00:32:02,012 has watched him smoke a fag, then picked it up when he stubbed it out. 602 00:32:02,421 --> 00:32:03,821 Who does he hang around with? 603 00:32:04,089 --> 00:32:06,183 Jackson? No one. 604 00:32:06,291 --> 00:32:08,886 I told you, he is an oddity. 605 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:09,960 He's a loner. 606 00:32:10,028 --> 00:32:12,520 Someone, anyone. Where does he go, what does he do? 607 00:32:12,597 --> 00:32:16,090 We know he liked going to the library where Yasmin worked. 608 00:32:16,368 --> 00:32:17,392 Well... 609 00:32:17,469 --> 00:32:19,267 The only thing was the man who wasn't there. 610 00:32:19,371 --> 00:32:21,101 - Who? - The man who doesn't exist. 611 00:32:21,673 --> 00:32:22,868 - Who? - Don't know. 612 00:32:22,941 --> 00:32:24,273 He didn't exist. 613 00:32:24,342 --> 00:32:27,642 Yeah, Jackson's alibi. He said when Yasmin was being attacked, 614 00:32:27,712 --> 00:32:29,840 he was with some fella called Tim Smith, 615 00:32:29,915 --> 00:32:32,111 who he said worked for Burton's builders' supplies 616 00:32:32,184 --> 00:32:33,277 in St Bude's Road 617 00:32:33,518 --> 00:32:35,180 and who lived in a flat in Frome, 618 00:32:35,287 --> 00:32:38,746 and who he said he got very drunk with on the night in question. 619 00:32:39,357 --> 00:32:42,521 So drunk, in fact, that he could remember almost nothing the next day. 620 00:32:42,594 --> 00:32:45,223 We had it checked out. We checked it out thoroughly. 621 00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:47,822 I mean, we checked every Tim Smith in our force area 622 00:32:47,933 --> 00:32:50,402 and in the surrounding four force areas, and uh, nothing. 623 00:32:50,469 --> 00:32:53,014 So where did Jackson go to with this Tim Smith to get drunk, then? 624 00:32:53,038 --> 00:32:55,473 Well, he said they drank at home. His home. Jackson's home. 625 00:32:55,574 --> 00:32:56,617 But there were no witnesses, 626 00:32:56,641 --> 00:32:59,201 so no one's ever seen or heard tell of this Tim Smith. 627 00:32:59,678 --> 00:33:02,477 I mean, he did invent it, so it makes you wonder, 628 00:33:02,547 --> 00:33:04,559 why would you make something up if you've got nothing to hide? 629 00:33:04,583 --> 00:33:06,294 But you don't think Jackson was off his face? 630 00:33:06,318 --> 00:33:08,583 You think the whole thing's a crap attempt at an alibi? 631 00:33:08,687 --> 00:33:10,131 Well, that's what we were left with, yeah. 632 00:33:10,155 --> 00:33:11,933 What else did he say about the man who doesn't exist? 633 00:33:11,957 --> 00:33:13,892 How recently had he got to know him? 634 00:33:14,493 --> 00:33:15,493 Recent. 635 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,395 Well, what if Tim Smith does exist, only he's not called Tim Smith? 636 00:33:19,464 --> 00:33:22,366 And he sat with Jackson, let himself drink himself stupid, 637 00:33:22,434 --> 00:33:26,565 and left him rat-arsed, incapable, alone, 638 00:33:26,638 --> 00:33:28,216 and then he went off and committed the murder? 639 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,836 So, how about sticking Hibbert in a pre-arrest VIMS ID parade 640 00:33:31,910 --> 00:33:34,709 and seeing if Jackson recognises Hibbert but as Tim Smith? 641 00:33:37,649 --> 00:33:40,346 Is it all right if I call you Alastair, Mr Jackson? 642 00:33:42,087 --> 00:33:43,612 You can call me what you like. 643 00:33:43,889 --> 00:33:45,380 You probably will, anyway. 644 00:33:46,291 --> 00:33:49,625 We just wanted to have a little bit of a talk with you about your friend. 645 00:33:49,728 --> 00:33:52,220 The one you told us about, Tim Smith. 646 00:33:52,864 --> 00:33:54,628 Have you seen him at all recently? 647 00:33:55,567 --> 00:33:57,365 No. 648 00:33:59,070 --> 00:34:01,471 What we were wondering, Alastair, is... 649 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,067 Do you think if we showed you some photographs 650 00:34:05,143 --> 00:34:06,668 you might be able to recognise him? 651 00:34:07,512 --> 00:34:09,174 Yes, I imagine so. 652 00:34:11,917 --> 00:34:13,510 Why? Have you found him? 653 00:34:13,952 --> 00:34:16,319 We think we might be getting close. 654 00:34:16,388 --> 00:34:18,186 Okay? 655 00:34:18,423 --> 00:34:20,392 Now, I'm just going to ask you a few questions. 656 00:34:20,492 --> 00:34:23,371 First question might seem a bit odd, but I will explain to you at the end 657 00:34:23,395 --> 00:34:24,829 why I'm asking. 658 00:34:25,330 --> 00:34:29,165 You told us that you and Mr Smith 659 00:34:29,234 --> 00:34:31,203 went back to your house and had a few drinks. 660 00:34:31,369 --> 00:34:33,065 I thought you didn't believe me? 661 00:34:34,272 --> 00:34:35,638 About Tim Smith. 662 00:34:37,075 --> 00:34:39,601 You said he stayed a while, chatting. 663 00:34:41,413 --> 00:34:43,382 Yes, he did. 664 00:34:44,749 --> 00:34:47,082 Now, I know you told us 665 00:34:47,285 --> 00:34:49,948 you don't remember much about what happened later, 666 00:34:51,222 --> 00:34:55,956 but if we were to come round to your house with you, 667 00:34:56,027 --> 00:34:58,121 do you think you might be able to point 668 00:34:58,196 --> 00:35:00,597 to anything he might have touched while he was there? 669 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,700 He went through some of my CDs. Is that any good? 670 00:35:07,205 --> 00:35:09,868 Yes, I think that would be spot on. 671 00:35:10,075 --> 00:35:11,619 You see, if we can get his fingerprints... 672 00:35:11,643 --> 00:35:12,920 In fact, the glass he drank out of 673 00:35:12,944 --> 00:35:14,913 is probably still on the floor somewhere. 674 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,171 Nice. 675 00:35:18,116 --> 00:35:20,116 And are you anywhere nearer to catching the killer? 676 00:35:22,087 --> 00:35:25,546 Because you know what's being said. Don't you? 677 00:35:26,091 --> 00:35:27,525 In the press? 678 00:35:28,226 --> 00:35:31,162 That whoever is murdering these women 679 00:35:31,229 --> 00:35:33,562 could have been the killer 13 years ago. 680 00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:36,295 My father and I have been saying for years 681 00:35:36,401 --> 00:35:38,199 that Jeremy Leach is an innocent man. 682 00:35:38,603 --> 00:35:40,970 And he's been talking so highly of you, pal. 683 00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:43,440 Would you like to come this way, please, Mr Jackson? 684 00:35:46,711 --> 00:35:48,304 Hello, Rick Wallis. 685 00:35:49,648 --> 00:35:51,742 Yeah. He's identified Hibbert. 686 00:35:53,385 --> 00:35:55,265 Jackson's identified Hibbert! Let's pick him up! 687 00:35:57,222 --> 00:35:58,383 Well done. 688 00:35:58,490 --> 00:36:00,959 Stick with me, kid. I'll get you into a fight. 689 00:36:14,305 --> 00:36:16,103 Yeah, hold on! 690 00:36:21,346 --> 00:36:23,178 Fuck. 691 00:36:24,149 --> 00:36:25,378 Hello. 692 00:36:25,483 --> 00:36:27,076 - I fell asleep. - You did right. 693 00:36:27,886 --> 00:36:29,684 Can I come in? 694 00:36:30,088 --> 00:36:33,354 Uh, yeah. Um, I was just packing. 695 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,420 I've just had a phone call. 696 00:36:38,029 --> 00:36:39,029 It's bad news. 697 00:36:40,432 --> 00:36:42,196 - Our Dom? - Who's Dom? 698 00:36:43,902 --> 00:36:44,961 No, not Dom. 699 00:36:45,236 --> 00:36:48,502 I had a phone call from the CPS in Manchester. 700 00:36:50,041 --> 00:36:52,909 They're dropping the attempted murder charge against Nick Savage. 701 00:36:55,146 --> 00:36:56,910 I know, I know. It's... 702 00:36:57,982 --> 00:37:00,884 Unbelievable doesn't even start to cover it. 703 00:37:01,853 --> 00:37:03,297 Well, so what are they charging him with? 704 00:37:03,321 --> 00:37:05,415 Nothing. They're saying there's insufficient... 705 00:37:05,523 --> 00:37:06,667 They're saying there's no evidence. 706 00:37:06,691 --> 00:37:09,126 They're saying legally, there isn't a case. 707 00:37:09,928 --> 00:37:11,055 So he's going to walk? 708 00:37:11,162 --> 00:37:12,540 Well, he'll never work as a barrister again 709 00:37:12,564 --> 00:37:14,590 because of his relationship with that juror 710 00:37:14,666 --> 00:37:17,295 and I'm assuming his marriage is stuffed 711 00:37:17,402 --> 00:37:19,064 but yes, that's the upshot at the minute. 712 00:37:19,170 --> 00:37:20,604 He knows where I live. 713 00:37:20,672 --> 00:37:23,005 I'd be very surprised if he tried anything like that again. 714 00:37:23,074 --> 00:37:26,067 - He's got keys to my flat. - Change the locks. 715 00:37:26,911 --> 00:37:28,311 You all right? 716 00:37:29,514 --> 00:37:31,312 Stupid question. 717 00:37:33,284 --> 00:37:34,775 Do you want the less bad news? 718 00:37:36,821 --> 00:37:38,619 I don't know. 719 00:37:38,957 --> 00:37:39,957 Do I? 720 00:37:40,091 --> 00:37:42,651 They picked Hibbert up two hours ago. 721 00:37:42,761 --> 00:37:44,195 They found his phone, 722 00:37:44,262 --> 00:37:47,061 they found a few other things that could link him to Leach. 723 00:37:47,165 --> 00:37:50,067 Anyway, he's confessed. He's confessing. 724 00:37:50,168 --> 00:37:52,069 He's talking right now, 725 00:37:52,170 --> 00:37:53,604 mostly about Leach. 726 00:37:53,671 --> 00:37:56,937 About how Leach coached him, the things he told him he'd done. 727 00:37:57,041 --> 00:38:00,341 The point is, Rick Wallis wants us to talk to Leach again 728 00:38:00,445 --> 00:38:03,347 to put it to him that Hibbert's making these allegations. 729 00:38:03,448 --> 00:38:05,048 They've only got us for another 24 hours. 730 00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:06,574 I said we would. 731 00:38:06,684 --> 00:38:08,482 - What do you think? - Yeah. 732 00:38:11,823 --> 00:38:13,485 Dom's my brother, by the way. 733 00:38:13,558 --> 00:38:15,083 He was at my birthday thing. 734 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,186 He probably didn't speak to you. 735 00:38:20,064 --> 00:38:22,829 I was thinking about that pig Savage. 736 00:38:23,902 --> 00:38:25,962 You wouldn't really want endless details 737 00:38:26,037 --> 00:38:29,599 about your private life dragged through the court, would you? 738 00:38:29,674 --> 00:38:32,269 'Cause you know damned well that's what would happen 739 00:38:32,343 --> 00:38:35,211 if the CPS had pressed charges against him. 740 00:38:35,547 --> 00:38:40,178 Do you know what I really can't get over is that I trusted him. 741 00:38:40,919 --> 00:38:44,151 I loved him. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. 742 00:38:44,489 --> 00:38:46,185 Yeah, well... 743 00:38:46,991 --> 00:38:49,620 Some people are very plausible, aren't they? 744 00:38:49,994 --> 00:38:51,826 Yeah, but how do you know? 745 00:38:51,930 --> 00:38:54,058 How can you see through 'em? 746 00:38:54,232 --> 00:38:55,860 Like this Leach bastard. 747 00:38:57,235 --> 00:38:58,669 I did, I fell for it. 748 00:38:59,037 --> 00:39:00,835 You can't always. 749 00:39:01,773 --> 00:39:03,401 Look at the bugger I married. 750 00:39:06,311 --> 00:39:09,304 It's not just instinct. It's experience. 751 00:39:09,714 --> 00:39:13,344 I think a large part of instinct is experience. 752 00:39:13,952 --> 00:39:15,750 So, you know. 753 00:39:16,087 --> 00:39:19,353 I don't think we should give up on your rosy future just yet. 754 00:39:19,557 --> 00:39:21,719 Well, I sometimes think I'm shit at this job. 755 00:39:21,793 --> 00:39:23,557 Hey, if you're fishing for compliments, lady, 756 00:39:23,628 --> 00:39:25,654 you're talking to the wrong small-minded bitch. 757 00:39:28,633 --> 00:39:31,159 Why didn't I know you had a brother? 758 00:39:32,871 --> 00:39:35,705 Because he's a bit of black sheep in a family of black sheep, 759 00:39:35,807 --> 00:39:37,673 so that's going some. 760 00:39:38,142 --> 00:39:39,906 What's he done? 761 00:39:40,011 --> 00:39:41,104 Dom. 762 00:39:41,246 --> 00:39:43,044 What hasn't he done? 763 00:39:44,782 --> 00:39:46,512 No, he's just staying with me at the minute 764 00:39:46,584 --> 00:39:48,143 because he's a bit down on his luck 765 00:39:48,253 --> 00:39:50,586 and because he's got nowhere else to go. 766 00:39:59,530 --> 00:40:01,590 Have you arrested Alastair Jackson? 767 00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:03,701 No, Mr Leach, we haven't. 768 00:40:04,802 --> 00:40:07,169 We charged a man called Philip Martin Hibbert 769 00:40:07,238 --> 00:40:09,707 with the murder of Yasmin Heaney and Jodie Winterbourne. 770 00:40:10,475 --> 00:40:11,670 Do you know him? 771 00:40:11,743 --> 00:40:13,143 Phillip Martin Hibbert? 772 00:40:13,244 --> 00:40:16,681 Yes, yes. He was in Durham the same time I was, 773 00:40:16,748 --> 00:40:18,307 on the same wing, briefly. Why? 774 00:40:18,383 --> 00:40:22,377 Could you describe the sort of contact that you had with him in Durham? 775 00:40:22,487 --> 00:40:23,487 None. 776 00:40:23,554 --> 00:40:25,699 And have you had any contact with him since he was released? 777 00:40:25,723 --> 00:40:27,749 Well, no, of course not. Why would I? 778 00:40:28,226 --> 00:40:31,788 Hibbert is telling us that you and he became very close in Durham. 779 00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:34,365 Well, that is not true. 780 00:40:34,799 --> 00:40:37,462 That you had an understanding. An agreement. 781 00:40:37,602 --> 00:40:39,195 Ha! 782 00:40:40,004 --> 00:40:42,872 Hibbert was an odd, unpleasant kind of... 783 00:40:43,141 --> 00:40:45,736 Just not the sort of person I'd associate with. 784 00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:47,435 That's not what he says. 785 00:40:47,612 --> 00:40:50,844 Well, if he's implying anything about me, then he's... 786 00:40:52,450 --> 00:40:53,543 He's delusional. 787 00:41:03,828 --> 00:41:06,161 Do you know when Janet got stabbed? 788 00:41:06,397 --> 00:41:08,195 Mmm. 789 00:41:08,433 --> 00:41:10,459 I fell apart, you didn't. 790 00:41:10,969 --> 00:41:14,406 I just stood there shaking and babbling. 791 00:41:15,773 --> 00:41:18,436 I'd only known her for 12 months. You'd known her for 20 years, 792 00:41:18,509 --> 00:41:22,412 yet it was me that was falling to bits. 793 00:41:22,714 --> 00:41:25,548 If I hadn't have been there, you'd have done everything I did. 794 00:41:26,851 --> 00:41:31,152 You had the luxury of falling apart because you knew I wouldn't. 795 00:41:32,090 --> 00:41:34,525 You'd have coped if you'd had to. 796 00:41:36,260 --> 00:41:38,024 I went home and cried my eyes out, 797 00:41:38,129 --> 00:41:40,598 but there was no way I was going to do that there, then, 798 00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:42,463 in front of you lot. 799 00:41:43,234 --> 00:41:45,100 Plus, I remember thinking, 800 00:41:45,203 --> 00:41:47,434 if this is the last thing I ever do for Janet, 801 00:41:47,505 --> 00:41:51,499 and I hope to God it isn't, I'm going to do it properly. 802 00:41:51,609 --> 00:41:53,942 That's where your head would've been if it had to be. 803 00:41:54,545 --> 00:41:56,523 And the fact that you beat yourself up so much about stuff 804 00:41:56,547 --> 00:42:00,780 tells me how keen you are to learn and get things right. 805 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:03,918 You're good. 806 00:42:04,022 --> 00:42:07,015 One day you'll be very good. All right? 807 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,795 I made a really bad decision once. 808 00:42:14,632 --> 00:42:16,123 What? 809 00:42:17,368 --> 00:42:19,428 It was when Sammy was four. 810 00:42:20,972 --> 00:42:22,838 I realised way back then 811 00:42:22,907 --> 00:42:25,809 Dave was mucking about with another woman and I... 812 00:42:28,446 --> 00:42:30,278 buried my head in the sand. 813 00:42:31,916 --> 00:42:34,852 I was in love with the man I wanted him to be, 814 00:42:34,919 --> 00:42:36,945 not the man he clearly was. 815 00:42:37,555 --> 00:42:39,080 And I ignored it. 816 00:42:40,091 --> 00:42:41,525 For 10 years. 817 00:42:41,959 --> 00:42:43,655 Pretended it wasn't happening. 818 00:42:43,761 --> 00:42:47,391 And if I'd had the guts to deal with it then, 819 00:42:47,465 --> 00:42:50,629 instead of later, when I had to, when he went off with... 820 00:42:51,302 --> 00:42:54,067 Everything would've been so much better for Sammy, 821 00:42:54,172 --> 00:42:57,665 but for me as well, because I'd have got myself organised, 822 00:42:57,742 --> 00:43:00,211 so I didn't have to stop working at the Faculty. 823 00:43:01,012 --> 00:43:03,243 I was good at that job, Rachel, I loved it. 824 00:43:03,314 --> 00:43:05,510 I know I was born for it and... 825 00:43:06,684 --> 00:43:09,813 I'd almost forgotten how much till these last few days. 826 00:43:13,324 --> 00:43:16,226 I'd forgotten how alive it made me feel. 827 00:43:33,511 --> 00:43:34,672 Have you heard the news? 828 00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:37,077 Very pretty. 829 00:43:38,049 --> 00:43:41,178 So, don't you think that is like a confession? 830 00:43:41,786 --> 00:43:43,516 Not exactly. 831 00:43:43,588 --> 00:43:47,218 For someone like Leach, a control freak, 832 00:43:47,325 --> 00:43:48,725 being in prison's agony. 833 00:43:48,793 --> 00:43:50,785 For all the usual reasons, but on top of that, 834 00:43:50,862 --> 00:43:52,956 you've got no control over anything. 835 00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:56,057 What time you eat, what time you sleep, when you speak to other people. 836 00:43:56,167 --> 00:44:00,161 He's done that because death is the only bit of control he had left 837 00:44:00,238 --> 00:44:02,598 after we took away his little, carefully planned pipe dream. 838 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,836 That's all. But, you know... 839 00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:07,308 Who cares? 840 00:44:08,546 --> 00:44:09,912 Well done.